Exploring Traditional Christian Burials

00:00 - Speaker 1 I usually do. But anyway, welcome, Stephanie. It's great to see you and get this going. We've talked a little bit about it back and forth, so I'm very excited as well as prayerful about this conversation. So first I'll introduce myself. 00:17 I'm Laurel Nicholson, the creator and founder of the Death and Resurrection Doula Training Program. The International Fellowship Cafe is an outreach of this training program, open to all. You don't have to be a Christian to join, there's no cost. It's just for cultivating conversation around not only death but also our hope and resurrection, the Christian hope of resurrection. And today we have a great conversation ahead of us. 00:48 And, Stephanie, you are certified in my training program as well, as you took another doula end-of-life training program. So you've got a wide scope of knowledge of not only the Christian role as a doula, but you've studied and you're more familiar with the non-Christian, secular role of an end-of-life doula. I don't know if that'll play into today's conversation. Maybe we talk a little bit about the death positive movement which is a part of the secular end-of-life doula training and service. But first of all let me just give you a minute to introduce yourself. 01:33 Kind of the question I have for you in your introduction I'd like you to include is what moved you into the Orthodox Church. You're the first Orthodox Christian who came through this training program, which has been awesome because it opened my eyes and mind to a lot but also made me feel very confident in my training program because it was ecumenical. It is ecumenical, but welcoming to someone outside the Protestant church. I'm Protestant, so maybe just begin by just sharing a little bit about your story what brought you into Orthodox Church and how you've become interested in the traditional burial practices we're going to talk about today. 02:22 - Speaker 2 Oh sure. Well, thank you, Laurel, Excuse me. Well, I grew up in a Southern Baptist home. My parents were very, very much. The church was our lives, and so I grew up in that. I know the scripture and I grew up, you know, believing in Jesus and praying and reading the Bible and going to church. 02:46 But as I grew up, I just felt that I felt there was something lacking and I wanted to. I really was. I really wanted to, like, give myself to God. I really wanted to serve God with all my heart and I wanted a spiritual discipline. You know, I wanted the church to ask something of me, to require something of me for my life to be changed and for me to be living as a Christian out in the world. And I didn't find that in my community. And so I went searching and it led me on this long search. And it led me, on this long search, ended up getting really heavily involved in yoga and I believed at that time that that did not contradict my Christian beliefs, that I could still practice yoga as a Christian and that that gave me the embodied spiritual practice that I was looking for. So that lasted for a long time and I got really heavily into the philosophy of yoga and all that and Eastern mysticism. But through a series of miraculous events, Through a series of miraculous events, I was invited to an Orthodox church and to a liturgy, and I went to the liturgy and at my first liturgy at an Orthodox church, I um, I believed with all my heart that that is what I was searching for, that that that was the embodied spiritual life that I what I was searching for, that that was the embodied spiritual life that I was looking for, and I never went back, I never practiced yoga again after that day. It was a profound experience. 04:38 Orthodoxy is a way of life and so within that, it's a holistic way of living out the faith, and that includes death and burial. So in my increasing involvement with the Orthodox Church and getting to know people, I met some people in my area that were talking about this, that were talking about ancient Christian burial practices and what they were and bringing them back to you know, bringing them to the United States. That was happening. I learned about these women at the same time that I was becoming interested in serving and companioning people at the end of their lives, Something that I had been felt called to do for a long time and I was beginning to realize that. So it just kind of came together and I met these women and who have a burial society in Northern New England and got to know what they do. And I got to know other people around the country, other Orthodox Christians and churches that are talking about this and interested in making the ancient Christian burial practices something that people will at least know about and consider. 06:08 - Speaker 1 So Amazing and thank you. And I have some similar experiences, not Orthodox but you know, looking for an embodiment of the faith, searching outside of church practices for that. I think perhaps we're looking for healing right and some type of, you know, self-medication through meditation sometimes seems right but ultimately, you know, I, I remember I actually would get some injuries. I, I worked so hard with injuries and I thought, well, this is taking me further from what, from what I I want and um, but but certainly as humans in a broken world with the sin nature, we're looking for healing and you've had a profound experience of healing with the Christian tradition that you couldn't find somewhere else. So, really, really fascinating. And I know a few well, maybe not know well as well as I've gotten to know you, but have been, have touched paths with other Orthodox Christians and thought, wow, I don't know anything about it. I went to a wedding once at an Orthodox church. Orthodox wedding, Minority Christians in the United States Is that right? 07:43 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, it's um, it's. It's mostly um immigrants and children of immigrants from Russia, from Greece, from Lebanon, from Syria. Um, that's the majority of it. It's not all of, obviously, but um. So there's a challenge in to integrate into American society, where, when the Orthodox overseas came here to escape persecution, holding on to their culture and their language was very important to them, and so that can be somewhat of a barrier to converts and to Americans who are interested in joining the Orthodox Church. So that's something that is. You know that the church is trying to figure out, you know how much of that cultural element to keep in place and still open it up and welcome everyone. 08:43 - Speaker 1 Yes, and still open it up and welcome everyone. Yes, and then one more piece of historical knowledge so people might understand. So the Orthodox Church actually split from the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation. So this schism, is it the Great Schism? I think that's what it's called. Can you remind me? No pressure, but if you know, was this like in the 8th century? I don't remember. I think it was the 11th century. 09:11 - Speaker 2 11th century, I believe so. 09:14 - Speaker 1 And I looked it up because I sort of remembered from some of my master's degree studies in seminary it's actually over the disagreement of what something means in the Nicene Creed. Can you confirm that During those councils? 09:33 - Speaker 2 Yes, the philoche. I'm not sure about the details of that. I also know that there's a disagreement about the Pope, that the Orthodox Church does not have a Pope. They believe in a more. They believe in a synodal church where there's a group of hierarchs who decide, and not one single person. So that was another reason for the split. 10:00 - Speaker 1 Okay, wow, well, great. So this was a very brief introduction to a very large topic, but I think that everyone listening today and coming in to listen later will now have a little bit better of a feel for what the Orthodox Church is, what it means today, because this is likely really new to people. And I'll just say, personally I've been really moved by some Orthodox theologians and even without knowing really, I know their differences but I don't know what they are. So for the sake of our training program, I think it's wonderful to have all three strands and I'm sort of saying three because I'm lumping non-denominational in with Protestant but we are a wide group of believers. 10:54 Some differences in our church structures, perhaps the creed, but first and foremost the creed. But first and foremost, everyone believes that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life, and the early Christians and when I say the early Christians I'm talking about those who were first few centuries, including, you know, when Jesus was raised from the dead. So I'm talking about the first few centuries, first couple of centuries that the church fathers are incorporated into that time Protestants may not know. A lot of Western Christianity is is predicated on Augustine, or some people say Augustine, who was considered one of these early church fathers. So our tradition runs very, very deep. 11:51 One thing you're going to tell us a little bit more about today, Stephanie, is that the Orthodox Church sounds like better than any of the other churches have really held on to is the tradition of burial, as in, no cremation I didn't even think about asking you this but embalming. I would think that might not be part of what the Orthodox Church accepts. But so let me get into the next question, which is to expand on the Christian tradition of burial, how the Orthodox Church continues this tradition. So let me give you some time to just share with us knowledge that you've learned through your studies, through these other women that you've connected with and seeing the practices that they're upholding, and we'll go from there. How's that sound? 12:51 - Speaker 2 Sure, okay, holding and um, we'll go from there. How's that sound, sure, okay? So, um well, the, the early christians, um, they carried on. They were jewish mostly, and they carried on the jewish practices, and the jews very much believed the body to be sacred, um to be honored. So the Jewish, the Jewish, the early Christians, held that belief and they also have the hope of a bodily resurrection. So, a traditional Christian burial which we think of today, it's the same as they did back thousands of years ago. It was a simple, natural burial. That it should be humble, there shouldn't be any kind of ostentatious show of wealth. It should be returning the body to the earth from where it came, um, wrapped in a simple white shroud, maybe a baptismal gown, put in a simple box, um, and just or just in the earth and just return to the earth with prayer, you know, surrounded by prayer. 14:30 - Speaker 1 So, yeah, no that's great, that is, and I think a lot of people long to return to that, honestly, christian or not. 14:40 You know, with the death positive movement, green burials are becoming popular and just, I mean, you can go do something as green through using a funeral home and do a less ostentatious box in one of the you know fancy wood coffins, but even go further down the green road and not even be buried in a box or a coffin and be wrapped in a shroud and placed in the earth in one of the like wildlife preserves or something. 15:17 So, yes, becoming becoming popular, for I think I think a lot of reasons the expense, the, the grief. Actually people are beginning to say that the way we handle the end of life, what happens immediately after end of life with the burial, can affect the way that we grieve. And so, christian or not, communities are moving towards more community-filled, hands-on burial to begin the grieving process, which I think is amazing. And if you think about God and His will, you know it is that we would heal and so and I've not really thought of it from this context before, but it makes sense, you know, and I truly believe that you know, even those who don't know God and Jesus Christ, the simple traditions that Christians hold, maybe the simplicity that people are longing for and we just don't know. 16:25 - Speaker 2 Right. So I just add on to that, build on that. So, within that tradition this is what people are interested in bringing back is community body preparation. So the faith, community and or the family would prepare the deceased body for burial by washing it, anointing it with sacred oil, having the priests come and pray over it, and while the body is being washed and prepared for burial and wrapped in a shroud, prayers and psalms will be continuously said next to the body, prayers are said, the Psalter is read from the time of death to the time of burial, so the person is completely surrounded by prayer, and the belief is that death is a process. Death is not just something that happens in a minute and the person is dead. Death happens, it's a process and the soul is separating from the body and during that process, after the soul separates from the body, it's going on a journey, and so we surround that soul in prayer as it begins this journey, and so this is something that, and so this is something that we can bring back. 18:17 There are people and there's a secular movement to do home funerals and to lay the body in honor in the home or in hospice or in a nursing home or wherever that person has died and to wash the body and lovingly prepare that body for burial. 18:23 Whether or not you use a funeral home or have a green burial or not, you can still do that. And you know we do have to make concessions because of the culture that we live in. We may have to. You know, we may not be able to go 100% natural. It all depends on the funeral homes in your area and the cemeteries that you have near you. But there are still some things that you can do to make it more spiritual, have more depth and, like you were saying, Laurel, when you do that it helps everyone's grief, it helps you born to see that body. And then in the Orthodox church it's an open casket. There's traditionally no embalming done and there's a last kiss. So everyone after the funeral gets a chance to go up and spend time with that person and give them a last kiss before the casket's closed. 19:24 - Speaker 1 That's really amazing, and I'm thinking of children being able to view death right and then live their life with a greater acceptance of death than perhaps we've come to experience traditional way. You're laying out for us, reminding us of what our Christian ancestors have done in the years before us. It is, I mean, it's really like if you think about how it kind of goes today for someone in the community. It's that perhaps someone gets sick, receives cancer. I'm going to use cancer as an example because I see this a lot. Cancer, the treatment is brutal. They start to be separated from the community because they're not a regular church attending member. I work in the church, I've worked in several churches. Very common for the pastor to be the last one to know. Strangely but true. They say you know someone will, a parishional will come up and say, well, so-and-so is a little bit disappointed, you haven't called. And he said well, nobody told me. And sure enough, you know the family. Why might that happen? They don't want to burden another, the pastor, who has a lot of things you know on their plate. So a number of reasons that a person can get sort of disconnected from the community, from the community, but certainly the treatment we may choose to survive. 21:16 Cancer can be, you know, really, really burdensome, not just for the patient but for the caregivers, and then falling away from the community slightly. You know, first it's like, okay, well, let us know how you're doing. But then, you know, months or years go by and it's very, very easy to be separated. Then perhaps the person dies, the treatment didn't work. You hear, oh, my goodness, someone so died. Nobody saw the body. It was whisked away to the morgue, then taken to the funeral home. If they see the body, it's because it's been embalmed, which is required for a public viewing. 21:53 And, um, you know, or it may be that that people aren't even that some people don't want to have funerals anymore they cremate the, the remains and put it in a urn and it's in storage. Or, you know, I've seen stored urns very, very frequently. So very different, very different. So now, outside of the church as well as inside, there's a movement to reclaim this contact, this community involvement, because people know this isn't good for us, avoiding death isn't helping any of us thrive in our life, which we think is the opposite, you know, like a prosperity mentality or just a very, you know, self-driven will may say you know, not me, I am not going to die, but it's not true. And you know, hopefully all of us have a very long time. But perhaps cultivating community care, community education, could help us plan better in advance, contemplate the things that we really want, because if you do wish to do the traditional means around burial, you're going to need some planning. 23:13 - Speaker 2 The traditional means around burial, you're going to need some planning. Yeah, I think that's key. I've heard it said that it could take six months to a year to plan a, you know, so-called natural burial. You know it takes some legwork and you want to make sure that. You want to make sure beforehand that the cemetery that you're going to use and the funeral director that you're going to work with understand your wishes and are on board, and you want to make sure you have an advocate for you. That's in writing, so that if you're not able to speak for yourself or after your death, that someone can speak for you and advocate for your wishes. So it does take some legwork and planning is key. A lot of people don't want to have that conversation and talk about this. 24:04 - Speaker 1 You're right, and it sounds to me that funeral homes I mean they're in the business of profit for the most part, and so you know that includes working with families. When the culture begins to change, families now may want to take on more responsibility and funeral homes I've read and heard you know are willing to work with families in this, heard you know are willing to work with families in this, and, and I think I read somewhere that you know will the funeral home become, you know, just like an assistant in helping you clear the bureaucracy right as people take more and more agency back around the burial process. And then you know, maybe you know sort of humorous, sort of maybe it's morbid humor, but you know, like you can't just put a dead body in the back of your truck because you have a pickup truck you know when this movement started. 25:14 - Speaker 2 The home funeral movement started probably, I don't know, in the 70s or something. People could go to the town hall and it was a struggle and it was tough for people to accept, but it's legal for them to do the death certificate and to file the death certificate. A family member or a trusted friend can do that and they can also get that transportation permit and transport the body if they have. You know the means to do so. However, even though it's legal, the system is increasingly set up against that. It's more automated, it's electronic now and it's set up so that funeral directors log in to their own account and they do it. So, even though this is legal in all 50 states, it's getting increasingly more difficult to do. So it makes sense to have a funeral director at least do the death certificate and the transportation, at least in my area. You know every state might have some variation on it, but yeah. 26:30 - Speaker 1 Yes, and one of the beautiful things that's happening with funeral homes is that they are required to break down the price, like what is included, what's it cost? 26:43 You know you don't have to buy the whole package to have transportation, you can just purchase transportation. 26:50 And so the funeral home has to list these things individually in the funeral home, but my understanding is that's becoming required that it must be listed online as well, and my local funeral homes I checked and they do have their price breakdown online. 27:06 So I just suggest to everybody who finds interest in this helping families regain agency, not just at the time of death but prior to sickness, as in any type of end of life planning, because you know, having like contemplating how you may want to be buried is as important as contemplating what kind of care you want into your life. It's not just you know, okay, here, and then I'm not going to think about that. If you're thinking about what kind of care you want, you should really just go the entire way and make a plan, and I like what you said. You know, six to 12 months we don't have to decide what we want in a week Pray on the care we want to receive before and after death and build those relationships, build the, the care we want to receive before and after death, and and you know, Build those relationships. 27:56 Build the relationships. Yes. 27:58 - Speaker 2 And when the death happens, you're not fighting against people. There's already the understanding of what you want. 28:05 - Speaker 1 Exactly, and if someone decides two days before they die that they want their family to keep their body at home and wash it, you know, like talking with a professional about this, dula would be a wonderful person to talk with about, like you know, how can we get this done? You know, probably the time to decide is not after the person dies, you know. But start working towards those steps as soon as possible so that the you know if the funeral home is expecting the body to come. You know they are aware. You know the body's going to be at home for some time, because there are rules around that too. The funeral home is required to pick the body up within a certain amount of time, and I believe that may vary by state as well. 28:58 - Speaker 2 And if the person is under hospice the rules are different as opposed to if they're not under hospice. 29:04 - Speaker 1 You're right. You're right, there may be investigations if someone dies. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so the best thing, what is your advice? Let me ask I shouldn't give what I think the best thing is, but if someone is, you know, considering exploring this, like, how does someone get started? 29:28 - Speaker 2 Well, you mean exploring a natural burial in their area. 29:35 - Speaker 1 I mean, would starting with a funeral home be the best? 29:39 - Speaker 2 place to start. Well, there's a few really good resources. There's, first of all, the National Home Funeral Alliance website, and that's got great resources and there's information on each of the different states. And then there's also the Funeral Consumers Alliance, and that has chapters in a lot of states. So those are great resources. And then there's also advanced directives that can be filled out. Five Wishes is one of them. 30:17 The Orthodox Church has a really great one and it's called A Gift for my Loved Ones, and that's the advanced directive, the health care proxy. And then there's another one called Another Gift for my loved ones, and that's the after death care. And so it, um, is a christian document and it takes, you know this, this in mind that we're talking about, about the christian view of burial, the desire for a natural christian burial, and it it puts it in in that document form and you can fill that out. And as you're filling it out and answering the questions, then then you know it's going to come up. Well, where do you want to be buried? How, um, who do you want to prepare your body for burial? Um, how involved do you want the you know, a funeral home, things like that, what do you want for a funeral. So in doing that document, you're going to, step by step, go through those questions and it'll come. 31:28 You know, you'll research your area and you're right, doulas are a perfect resource and an ally in that process, because it's a it's really hard to sit down by yourself and fill this stuff out. You know it. Who's really likely to do that in honesty? So so yeah, it's. It's a process and it's a slow. It could be a slow process because there's a lot to think about. 31:57 And another thing that I hear consistently is that you know, talk about it with your loved ones. That's really important. Talk about it and let your loved ones know what your preferences are and find out what their preferences are, what your preferences are, and find out what their preferences are. That's really key, because you could write everything down on paper, but there's always going to be some unexpected circumstance that happens. And if you've talked about this with your loved ones, then they'll understand generally what your wishes are, even if you haven't thought of everything that could possibly happen, you know. So that's really key. Talk about it, research your area, what are your resources that you want to use, and that kind of thing. 32:46 - Speaker 1 That's really good, because inevitably, when someone dies, there's going to be stress. There's a lot to take care of after somebody dies, and even if a death may be more palatable for certain reasons, because someone had lived a full life and maybe had been suffering and no longer suffering, it's still going to be full of grief. And grief can make you know, heighten our stress sensors and make things that wouldn't seem difficult to talk about or plan for when we're well, just so much harder, and so preparation and conversation is really the way to go, and to make this possible, they say that people choose. If they were to go back and choose what they chose under the stress situation, they likely wouldn't have chosen that, and you can get into more expense than you would have had you made some plans. 34:05 Well, so let me ask you because then I want to go soon over to the second part, which is to allow people to come in that have joined us and ask some questions, continue the conversation with the group and I know you and I have spoken a little bit, so I don't want to put you on the spot because I know you're still working through this, but I just want you to share a little bit more about your vision as a Christian end of life doula, death or resurrection doula and cultivating education inside your community. How you know kind of what. What made you want to go get a doula certification and and be a core part of your community and helping people. 34:55 - Speaker 2 Well, it's just a calling, you know. It's simply that Over my life, my adult life, I have had some jobs and some instances in my personal life where I've come in the bedside of someone as they took their last breath and been with people who are, you know, suffering and families who are struggling with terminal illness of one of their family members, and for me it's just such a tremendous honor and it's sacred to be in that kind of situation. It doesn't scare me, it doesn't give me anxiety, I just look at it as a tremendous honor. And so I realized that not everyone feels that way, and so I feel that, since I do feel that way, that I should probably give some kind of support, give whatever support I can to people in that situation, because I do feel drawn to it and it is a calling, I believe, from the Lord. 36:14 - Speaker 1 Right, I think so too. Well, that is absolutely amazing so too. 36:25 - Speaker 2 Well, that is absolutely amazing. Do you have one thing? Yes, I just wanted to say that I to to to add on to the planning conversation. I have also heard of people who have done, who you know. 36:34 Deaths happen unexpectedly also, and so it is still possible to have a natural funeral, to have family or your community do the body preparation, if that's what you wish, and to kind of have a little bit more I don't want to use the word control, but a little bit more say in the funeral preparations and the funeral and burial. You can still do it. Even if you don't plan out six months to a year in advance. It's possible and you just figure it out at the time, and so many people have done that and it is possible. So I don't want to say that. I don't want it to seem like if you don't plan this out, then it's not going to work. A lot of people can't plan it, yeah, but it does help to have a home funeral guide or a doula that can give you the resources that you need in that moment, and that's what they're great about, and those people, if you can't find a Christian one, you can at least have someone, and that is, you can find them through the Home Funeral Alliance. 37:52 - Speaker 1 Yeah, well, I'm glad you added that and you know it's kind of making me think of something I've actually been in my mind meaning to say, and that's so what's the difference between the Christian, traditional burial and the means that we've been talking about and the secular drawback towards green burial and what I think it is? Green burial and what I think it is, and I want to hear what you think is that our hope is placed in Christ, no matter how death happens, how burial happens, when death happens, when burial happens. One of the things I found, moving through training on the secular side to be an end-of-life doula, studying the death positive movement, is some of the like, whether we're returning to tradition or devising new methods of body disposition, which is the way to what happens to the body after disposition, which is the way to what happens to the body after people choose to to you know have happened with the body to bury it or break it down. That I've seen a thread. I can say it's within everything, but I've seen a thread that there may be some healing and salvation that happens in the method you choose and, for instance, giving back to the earth has salvific purpose and I believe as Christians we don't believe that. I believe we think that salvation has happened because of what Christ has done for us. We have, by the Spirit, spirit been brought to believe it and, and, but it's because of all things that are good. You know, the world, you know, picks up things that are good and makes its own plans with it, and I think that some of the natural yearning for, or the yearning for return, you know, is like you can give back to the earth, so there's still some type of atoning. I guess that's what I'm looking for, that you know. 40:12 I've also heard it said that you know there are certain methods that might be less appealing to Christians because of the way the body is treated, you know. 40:23 And so as Christians, we're likely going to take a different point of view on our burial than a non-Christian. And I'm not discounting, I'm not like I was doing some research before we jumped on today and just reading. You know more widely about Christians and you know cremation, for instance, which is not something that the Orthodox Church accepts, the Catholic Church does, the Protestant, non denominational churches they do, but I'm thinking more along just the lines of the, the more creative we get. You know, now you can take your cremated ashes and have them made into a vinyl record or into a diamond, you know, and where it is like, where the diamond is a pendant and I'm certainly not, you know, criticizing, you know, anyone that's a believer that you know wants their mother, you, their mother, on their necklace or something. I'm just saying that I don't fully know the answer or really exactly what I'm asking, but I do think that keeping in mind where our justification lies will perhaps help us as we consider our choices. I don't know if that came across well or not, but yeah, totally. 41:47 - Speaker 2 Some thoughts as you were talking was that I do see that as well is like there's this sense of virtue, you know, of giving back to the earth and of the green burial movement is like a way to show your virtue, but as Christians, our virtue is in, you know, serving Christ. 42:15 We develop virtue by living for Christ. So our focus is totally different. We want our bodies to come in contact with the earth and decompose, naturally, not because we're giving anything to the earth, you know, but it's because it's just part of the created order. You know, our bodies are made of um, organic material and and they break down and and after the soul leaves, they break back down and it's not um but but I I agree that I I see in the death positive movement and in the secular, you know, green burial movement, there is this, there is this emphasis on giving back and doing something to preserve that memory. As Orthodox, we just had, we're in the beginning of Lent, as everybody is, and we just celebrated what we call the Sunday of Orthodoxy, where we process around the church with our icons, and in the Orthodox Church we are all icons of Christ and we are to be honored and our bodies are icons of Christ and they're to be venerated and treated with honor, and so that's really like where the Orthodox are coming from. 43:45 - Speaker 1 Well, thank you, and I mean I could keep talking about this. I think it's really fascinating and I, you know, personally wish I knew a little bit more about, you know, maybe the Reformation and why, maybe the break with tradition, you know, accepting cremation. You know some of those where some of this changed, because I really don't know the history and so I'm not even really, you know that well, prepared to ask a lot, of, a lot of the questions that go through my mind. But but anyway, Stephanie, thank you. 44:15 - Speaker 2 And I add the one thing about the saints that we were talking about. And I add the one thing about the saints that we were talking about yeah, also in the, in the Orthodox Church, there are. There are times when, like after a body has been buried, if that person has lived a saintly life, a holy life, as evidenced by, you know, miracles surrounding that person and answers to prayer, that body, after some years, is exhumed. And there have been many, many, many bodies that have been exhumed and the relics, the body was incorrupt and so that person would be a saint in our church and someone to be honored because of their great example of a holy life. And so, from the Orthodox point of view, if you embalm or if you cremate, how are we going to know if we have a saint? 45:22 - Speaker 1 Interesting. So before I open up the room I'll close on this point. So one thing I read about at some point in seminary was, like early Christians, they wanted to be buried near martyrs because there was something they believed, there was something powerful about that, and so it's so interesting. I mean, I think you know. 45:46 - Speaker 2 And God works through the physical world and he works through our physical bodies and the like. The woman wanted to touch the hem of Christ's rope and, like the shadow of St Peter or Paul, the shadow of St Peter healed someone. So God very much works in our material world, with material things. To minister to increase our faith and to bring us closer to him. To minister to increase our faith and to bring us closer to him. 46:20 - Speaker 1 That's right. That's right the ordinary substance of water God actually uses for our rebirth. So amazing, absolutely amazing. Okay. So what I'm going to do now is we have about 12 minutes left and I probably have to change the setting here, but just invite anyone to turn on their camera if they would, if they would like to, and um, and and and talk, ask questions, say you liked something, you didn't like something, you didn't understand something. Um, I'm one more thing I'm trying to look for here, which is to help people get their videos on all right well, excuse me, I am trying to find. 47:10 I know where it is. I obviously just don't know. Zoom that well, okay, let's see to get to show non-video person. Okay, great. So if anybody has any questions they want to ask, did this resonate with you from any personal experience? Have you looked into natural burials in your area? What's on your mind? What's on? 47:38 - Speaker 5 your mind. Well, Stephanie, I wish I'd heard this or knew about this, because I was there when my mom died and she was in my house and they didn't come get her for a couple of hours and the nurse was sitting there and just like I don't know what to do and nobody was there. I didn't have anybody but her, and I wish. I thought of Go ahead. 48:02 - Speaker 2 What did you do? Did you just sit with her and talk to her. 48:07 - Speaker 5 Well, it's so strange. I feel like it's really bizarre. But I took a bit of her hair because her hair was really important to her. But she wanted to donate her body to science. She had clpd and she really abused her body throughout her life and she died early. So, um, you know, she was cremated, um, and took her ashes. But you know, yeah, I wish I'd. This was about 13 years ago and it was sad because I was hoping that there would be some kind of well, the community it would have been nice to have some community around me. She died in the middle of the night and my kids didn't live in town and my husband was out of town, working in another state. So it was just kind of a strange experience. But I wish I'd known and I told my husband, I think oh, go ahead, Go ahead. 49:07 - Speaker 2 I was going to say as churches we can have communities and small groups within the church that will go in at times like that and just read prayers or sit and have a cup of coffee with the person, talk, wash the body and just to spend time either spend time with the family at the person's bedside or to just take care of practical household matters and let the family sit in there with their loved one and grieve. 49:43 - Speaker 5 Yeah, I think I started to write about her dying and telling my family, because it was in the middle of the night, yeah and then I guess I planned her funeral and did a eulogy what would I say about her? And so I had that time. But I kind of wish that nurse wasn't sitting there so I could just be alone with her. It felt like I was being watched, which, you know. She has to stay, I guess, till somebody comes. So, anyways, that's, that was my experience, and the funny thing is I told my husband, I don't know, that I want to be cremated, and he goes well, I'm going to do what I think I need to do. At the end, you know it's like, and I said, well, I guess I could, you know, bury your body. 50:30 So we're kind of going back and forth about what to do or how we see it. But when did we decide in our history that cremation was okay with Christians? Because I just don't't, I don't like doing that, the idea of it that God created our bodies, I mean, I understand he can. You know, from ash to ash, right, we just did the ash Wednesday. So, yeah, if you want to say something about that, when did that happen? 50:55 - Speaker 1 I don't know when it happened, um, but I I was like I was reading about it a little bit today, and you know I mean arguments for cremation as permissible, for Christians would say you know you're going to be reduced to dust as your body decomposes, so this is a, you know, quick way, not that that's why you choose it, but it's, you know, it's putting the body in a form that will naturally happen, just in a more rapid. It's a more rapid process, you know, but I really I don't know. I don't even I have no idea. One thing Stephanie and I chatted a little bit about together through email you mentioned so Jewish tradition. They will not cremate, right, the Orthodox Church won't do a funeral for someone that was cremated, and the practice of cremation in the early turn of the I guess know the early church was that was a pagan practice and then here we've adopted it, as you know, a major part of the church. 52:10 - Speaker 5 What do you want to say, Stephanie? Can you say anything more about that? 52:14 - Speaker 2 No, you know, as an Orthodox, it's not accepted as a Christian practice. So I don't know, I don't know when that started to in, you know, Protestant and Catholic church, I don't know. But you know, Orthodoxy tries to stick with what the church fathers believe and what the ancient church practiced, and that's what we try to stick to, and so that's I. I agree with that, and and I don't know why that changed with the Catholic church and the Protestant church. But I can, if I were to guess, I would say that it was just, you know, a modernization, it was just an attempt to make things. It's cheaper and it's more. 53:15 That's what I was going to say and to make things easier for the faithful, but that's just a guess. I want to ask there's been something throughout church history where the church makes concessions because of the culture that we live in, and I can only imagine that that's what happened. 53:36 - Speaker 1 I would say you're on the right path. It'd be interesting. I don't know if you're not on the spot, rosa, but, being Catholic, if you want to add something, but quickly, I want to say when I lived in New York City, I was training to be a doula. So I thought about I'll help you in just a sec, michelle, I think I have a second Is that like? I don't know where I would have been buried had I not been cremated. You're cremated and then you're put in this urn that fits inside a columbarium inside the church chapel, and that's, if I had died while I was living in New York, that's what I would have done, because what else are you going to do? 54:15 - Speaker 2 That's a big challenge in the city is to find a burial place. That's a big challenge in the city is to find a burial place, so crap. 54:21 - Speaker 1 So numbers of people in smaller spaces. Perhaps that had something to do with it as well. Oh, rosa, you said I'm having. I heard my name. Oh, you're not sure exactly what we're talking about because you're having connection issues and I'm not going to put you on the spot, but you are perhaps our only Catholic attendee today, so I wanted to give you a a chance, if you wanted to, to talk a little bit about, if you have any knowledge around, why the catholic church has made cremation permissible where the orthodox church has not. How about? I got a question has? Has everyone here like changed their? Has anyone here changed their mind on burial just over the past few years? Like maybe becoming interested to be a death doula, learning about the death positive movement? Like maybe becoming interested? 55:27 - Speaker 3 to be a deaf doula learning about the death positive movement. I mean, I I always just wanted to be um cremated because I was like, just do it the cheapest way possible and um I didn't want people looking at me. 55:42 The funerals I had been to they were open casket. They were like, you know, looking at people with the makeup on. It didn't look normal and I didn't want all that on me because I don't even wear makeup. So I think that's why I um felt that way, just because it's like cost effective and I was like I'm just gonna go to heaven anyway. Um, but I do see the value for me. I'm still not like against it at this point, but I see the value for my family and the thought of of dying and having someone praying over my body and then processing the death as they do. That is more. 56:25 I see that I never thought it. I would have thought it was creepy a few years ago. I don't feel like it's creepy now. I feel like it's. I think it would be very, very like I don't want to say holy, but in a sense holy and endearing and honoring to a life that lived and died and that is now in heaven. So I feel like, um, if it was cost, I don't know. 56:53 I always think cost, but I was like stop thinking of money and dollars. But I always think like what's the cheapest thing? I won't be here, uh. But like I think, if, now that I'm realizing there's cost effective ways, um, to bury and to prepare the body and everything, I'm really interested in looking more into that and what it is, what the state of Texas, what the laws are around that, and wanting to learn more about that for an option for me. Now my family if I told them this, they'd freak out. So I'm like I don't think anyone will be doing that to me, but that's a process because it is new. It's a newer concept. So yeah, yeah, not. 57:33 - Speaker 2 Families will not. Everyone will feel the same way about about what they want, and so, after a death, there can be some conflicts and you might have to make some compromises. 57:49 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Okay, Rosa said something really, really great. I believe the church started allowing after Vatican II. A lot of Eastern Catholics is a big no to cremation. I actually believe I've heard that before. 58:03 - Speaker 2 Wow, yeah, and Eastern Catholics are more. They're closer to the Orthodox. 58:11 - Speaker 1 You know, after talking about this, hearing what everyone's saying, the word like expediting comes into mind. And pair that with modernization. We just expedite everything, except maybe the end of life. Right, we're learning in our third Atul Gawande, we'll really draw it out, but we do. We want to expedite stuff and I think with that we want to expedite our grief. Take the body to the morgue, cremate it. Let's just expedite, let's just keep moving, because we're a fast-paced culture. We have more to do in a day than we have the time to do it. That's how we work now and we push grief to the side. But these conversations, the actual hands-on community care, is a wonderful way to consider involving yourself in it and being more present. 59:20 - Speaker 4 Yeah, lisa kind of opened my thinking to different possibilities since being involved in this. But what about, like, my husband was cremated because that's what he wanted? So what do you do from that point on? 59:49 - Speaker 2 it's already done well, there's a lot of people who have been cremated and there's also people who have committed suicide and have done terrible things to themselves. You know not that that's what cremation is, but God is still God and God is still merciful and loving. And orthodox church have a tradition of praying for the dead and, um, I don't know all the specific theology behind that, but there is a sense, and it's backed by scripture, that there is something, there is some help that we can give to the dead through our prayers and through our intercessions. It's a mystery and again, I don't know. 01:00:48 I'm not the person to talk about all the details of the theology, but we do consider the people who have died as still part of our church family. We're the church militant, we're down here in the world and they are the church triumphant and no matter what happened to someone's body after it died, after they died, they're still a member of the body of Christ. They're still our loved ones. God is still merciful. So that's what I would say to that. God loves us and God understands our situation and knows what we have to contend with here on earth, and he's so forgiving and loving. So Thank you. 01:01:41 - Speaker 1 Thanks for asking that, lisa, and I just want to make sure for anyone who's not a part of the conversation today that they like you know, earlier we were talking about. 01:01:52 You know, is there any type of salvific nature to the way we bury ourselves? And we believe as Christians? The answer to that is no. We have been saved through one thing, and that's the work of Christ on our behalf. And so you know, when we're raised from the dead to the great day of judgment. I mean, I'm not an expert in church theology, but I would not glean that our body disposition method is a part of our judgment. I wouldn't. I mean, I don't think the bible speaks to that, that that the way in which you choose to dispose of the body is sin or not sin, like I don't think that that it it speaks in that way. 01:02:44 - Speaker 4 I don't know that. I even was thinking of it like that, like on his end of it, but on mine, like is that something that I need to make amends for? Ask forgiveness for I don't know. 01:03:06 - Speaker 2 Well, God knows what's in our hearts. That's the important thing, I think, even if I'm not saying this is you, lisa, but even if, looking back now, someone would think, oh wow, I would have made a different decision had I known. You know that's you don't get, you're not at fault for what you didn't know. You know and again, not not you know that one putting that on you, but I I believe that God knows what's in our hearts and he honors our good intentions. 01:03:47 - Speaker 1 I actually had a client who was well, he went to my church and his sister Episcopal. His sister was Orthodox and he died. In his directives he left that he wanted to be her in his will. He left he wanted to be cremated. She would not do it. She had. 01:04:17 And the funeral director was absolutely fantastic, he, he, and what I mean by fantastic, she was. She was very difficult to deal with and a lot of people just wanted to say like, like enough. But her, her grief was so intense so she, she wanted to fly. Her brother did not want him embalmed. He was in a cardboard like very much a plywood box. It was very, very, very, um, natural, simple. 01:04:47 So I think he had been dead a couple days in the house and then by the time she got there, I think it had been two weeks and then by the time she was there for a week, by the time we had the funeral, it was three weeks and not embalmed, he was in this box. She had him shipped to californ, buried, and you know, because it was of utmost importance to her that he be buried where the family was. So she went against his wishes because and I mean I'm not criticizing her, I'm not condoning her, I'm just telling you a fact that happened. She had the resources to do it. I guess you know that's probably quite expensive, where cremating him locally would have been a lot more simple and cost-effective. But I think for her, dealing with the suicide like to move to cremation what she did.